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    Garrett O'Hara

    Garrett O’Hara is the Principal Technical Consultant at Mimecast having joined in 2015 with the opening of the Sydney office, leading the growth and development of the local team. With over 20 years of experience across development, UI/UX, technology communication, training development and mentoring, Garrett now works to help organisations understand and manage their cyber resilience strategies. When not talking about the cyber security landscape, data assurance approaches and business continuity Garrett can be found running, surfing or enjoying the many bars and eateries of Sydney's Northern Beaches.

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Garrett O'Hara

The importance of simplicity for cybersecurity - With Ben Jones, CEO and co-founder of JumpStart Security

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Our guest this week is Ben Jones, CEO and co-founder of JumpStart Security - a company that focuses on making cybersecurity easy for small businesses. 

Ben talks about the importance of simplicity for cyber, the challenges that SMB’s present, how to achieve cultural buy-in for security, and also that time he may or may not have bought a knock-off leather jacket from a scammer in Manchester.  

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The Get Cyber Resilient Show Episode #56 Transcript

Garrett O'Hara: Welcome to the Get Cyber Resilient Podcast, I'm Gar O'Hara. And today we're joined by Ben Jones, CEO and co-founder of JumpStart Security. Ben ties together his experience in psychology and more recently sales and management across pharmaceuticals and cyber security to his new adventure and endeavor. JumpStart focus on the SMB space, so in the conversation we cover the nuances of that type of organization versus enterprise. In Ben's words, he had to unlearn the enterprise world as he and co-founder and CTO, Saim Khan, started out fresh from finishing the cyber leadership program with the Cyber Leadership Institute, which was co-founded by Phil Zongo, and he was our guest back in episode 16.

Ben talks about the importance of simplicity for cyber, the particular challenges of SMB, cultural buy-in for cyber security, and also that time he may or may not have bought a knock-off leather jacket from a scammer in Manchester. Over to the interview, please enjoy. Welcome to the Get Cyber Resilient Podcast, I'm Gar O'Hara. And today I'm joined by Ben Jones, CEO and co-founder of JumpStart Security. How are you going, Ben?

Ben Jones: I'm very well. Thank you for having me on, on your plus 50th show. Congratulations for you sticking with it. And I remember the first one, I'm a long time listener, first time caller-

Garrett O'Hara: There you go.

Ben Jones: ... and but yeah, very honored to be here, mate. Well done.

Garrett O'Hara: Thank you, and- and good to- to be here too. We're actually doing the first face-to-face recording an interview so far, which is pretty- pretty cool, bought all this gear thinking we were go- gonna be [laughs] traipsing around Sydney recording people, and this is the first time. So, hopefully the audio quality is good for everyone out there.

Ben Jones: 1.5 meters away from each other as well of course.

Garrett O'Hara: There you go. Yeah, so it's all, yeah, COVID safe.

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: Ben, look, the- the first question we pretty much ask everybody is, you know, how did they get to- to where they are? You're CEO, co-founder of JumpStart Security-

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: ... be great to kind of hear your- your background and- and how you got here?

Ben Jones: Yeah, definitely. I know we've only got half an hour, so we'll do... we'll do the cliff notes.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah [laughs].

Ben Jones: But yeah, I'm from I was born in Liverpool in Manchester, grew up in in Hong Kong, then back to Manchester. I played rugby at a decent level and then studied at university and ultimately I ended up sort of working in the field of psychology. So my sort of first profession was working with with young people living with cancer. So, I worked for the NHS at a wonderful hospital called The- The Christie Hospital, which is a sort of an epicenter of great research in the UK. but I worked with a particular cohort of sort of young people, teenagers, so not pediatric care, not adult based care, but there was something that was right in... right in the middle. and just loved that work. I ended up moving to Australia 16 years ago to carry on that work through an organization-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... called Canteen. they do the bandanas every year.

Garrett O'Hara: Oh, yeah. I know them well. Okay.

Ben Jones: yeah, and I worked for those guys at the Children's Hospital in Randwick Westmead Hospital. and then we would also sort of do regional programs and work with young people and their families who'd sort of been living with- with cancer. after that after sort of 12 years of that work, I sort of decided to go into business.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: So joined a massive drug company which was called AstraZeneca, which I'm sure everyone's heard of recently.

Garrett O'Hara: Oh, interesting. Yeah, okay.

Ben Jones: Yeah, it was good. One week I had people on the couch, and the next week I was selling stomach tablets [laughing] and went to all the beaches. But did well there won a sales award, became a sales manager, all that sort of traditional flow.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: went into then a sales medical device business, because the doctor's like tactile things, playing with things. So, I was in surgery for a number of years and ran a sort of big team of reps in that game-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... and enjoyed it very much, and did a lot more business strategy. And then yeah, sort of stumbled into cybersecurity a- a- a couple of years ago three and a half years ago now. worked for a business in Australia and so where we met and, yeah, became au fait with the... with the world of cyber. And the minute I joined I've just loved it and I'm not almost prefaced this and have a moment of vulnerability and honesty, I'm not a highly technical person.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: I'm a s-... out on out sales guy but if it's been, yeah, stomach tablets or end point solutions, I- I- I believe that's a- a strength of mine and building relationships. so having gone through that business and and then coming back out of it and having a little think about what the market needed, we've had this amazing time of COVID, which has obviously been horrendous and tragic for so many reasons-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... but has brought a lot of commercial opportunities, especially into this space, which gave me room for thought about starting the business that I've- I've started called JumpStart, which works with sort of smaller businesses. So I've had to unlearn a lot of the enterprise thinking.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: and and here we are today in the boardroom. as of today, we've got sort of 30 customers on board with a number of sort of consultant gigs. and in- in 100 day plan, we've smashed and superseded all of our expectations and I've got some really good logos on and yeah, this is the- the best experience I've ever had. It's been a- a great ride and I have a wonderful business partner Saim Khan who's sadly not here today, but it's been... it's been a- a great ride and lots of challenges to come, lots of good fun. But the- the industry's bulletproof. I- I love it. I love it.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah. It's full of... full of very interesting and- and sort of highly driven people. The- the small business challenge is probably the- the thing I think we can start with here, 'cause I think to your points, it's a huge conversation. You know, it goes from supply chain, how we're all digitally interconnected, you know, some of the government commentary recently-

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: ... we... and you said you had to unlearn enterprise thinking. It'd be great to kind of dig into that.

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: Like what's... what is the small business challenge, and maybe quantifying the problem. And then like wh- wha- what did you have to unlearn to- to be able to tackle it well?

Ben Jones: The mindset change in the enterprise in a sort of sales role or account management role, if I have that sort of hat on, was that invariably, and I think the industry average when you look at sort of the Accenture reports from last year, was the- the big decision of over 5,000 seats with a solution, it's about 6.7 head count in a commercial decision.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yep.

Ben Jones: So, I've been in a room with you to try to do a deal, and- and there's a lot of people involved, it's a long timeframe, there's lots of ego to satisfy, there's lots of things to jump through. and so that was quite a drawn out process, which had good wins as well.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: And could go well. I always found that problematic in terms of time to value seemed long, but I understand why that's in place. Your question to me is about how small- small business decisions are agile and move quick.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: So, I know I can meet someone, present our solution, and have a decision in over 20 minutes and have a credit card done, had a deal done in 20 minutes. And I did that yesterday, which is a wonderful feeling. Um the- the- the- the challenges that small businesses face now, I think, is never any more tha-... There's never been a more time when they've had to thrive in this sort of digital world.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: So, they've got to go into this dark room where there's no light on, but that's their only real choice to survive, I think, going forward.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: So having a- a good digital footprint and online presence that they have to do that if you're selling bowling balls, t-shirts, whatever you're doing as a small business owner, wine, financial services, you have to be playing in that space. So, that means you bring in a new cohort of people with not much experience, with low head count, who may be using an MSP without good security hygiene.

So, their risk factor goes through the roof. Now, because this is a new space, it's not their- their top priority, but they're quickly finding that there are... there are, you know, there's pitfalls everywhere in this business.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: And we do know from the evidence that one in five businesses in Australia last year that are sort of new businesses under 50 seats, they've got hit with a ransomware attack, for example, fold. They never trade again.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: One in five, which is an alarming statistic. and so when we then go back and look at the empirical evidence that we, you know, get from Scamwatch or from the Australia government, there is some really compelling stories of how small businesses, whilst they've gone through this process of having to survive through COVID, there's been some really sort of pioneer mavericky guys that are going out and going into this space, but that doesn't indemnify them against the risk. In fact, it just brings an entire new risk platform. I- I feel that what we are doing well is partnering with those businesses as they scale up-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... into that dark room, and hopefully we can shine the light on the problems.

Garrett O'Hara: Like is it a version of I mean, even larger non-technical organizations when they are trying to navigate cyber security or technology in general-

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: ... like that's not their core expertise too. I mean if you're manufacturing [laughs] I think you said bowling balls-

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: ... like the reality is, yeah, okay, you've got... you gotta bring in experts to do finance. You've got to do... bring in experts to do HR at some point. And it feels like IT and cybersecurity is less now falling into IT, but actually is understood to be a thing we need to do in and of itself. And in my mind, when you get down to the- the smaller organizations, you know, maybe one or two people, the- the reality is to do cybersecurity well, like that's nearly impossible, because it is so complex. And to your point, when you get it wrong, it's not like I'm trying to think of a, you know, another function that isn't important, the- the ramifications of maybe getting a HR decision wrong. Not that it's not serious, but it's not a we have to close the doors of the business serious, you know, to your point.

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: If you get hit by ransomware-

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: ... and, you know, not- not to do [inaudible 00:09:28], I don't think either of us are a- about that, but, you know, it's a national conversation. We can see both sides of the kind of political spectrum-

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: ... and bringing that strategy papers, talking about it. and I suspect it's because of what you're saying, which is, you know, mom-and-pop stores or smaller organizations, first of all, they're, you know, they're the engine of the Australian economy or at least a part of it.

Ben Jones: 80% of all... 80% of all businesses in Australia is deemed small business.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: 80%. Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: So, and- and to your point, then like we need to protect them-

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: ... and if they can't protect themselves and, you know, so a- a question for you then is as you've, you know, you've- you've mentioned the 30 logos that you've onboarded. So, I guess you're starting to see some trends there in terms of what's most useful to them, or what they're crying out for you.

Ben Jones: Yeah.

Garrett O'Hara: What are those things?

Ben Jones: Yeah. I- I mean just to go as a number of questions to answer there-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... the first one is they are flippant and say, even when you get cybersecurity right, the end user doesn't know about it-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... 'cause nothing happens. And so for a new business function, a new cost, I'm you're still asking people to pay for something and the best that they can... best result they is you don't get whacked.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah [laughs].

Ben Jones: Do you know what I mean?

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: And so the worst case is terrible, but the best case is, well, okay.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: So, I'm an e-... I- I'm just, uh I'm evangelizing about the problem.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: just sort of trying to bring attention to it. The AFR, conversely, is my best marketing tool. I listened to your podcast last week. And you know, if the... if the... if nine can't get it right, if the government can't get it right, if a water plant can't get it right, then who's getting it right?

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: The thing that's so interesting is, is that I- I don't feel personally that vendors or the companies are the ones that are doing the innovation.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: The criminal is innovating, even with something like the- the exchange thing. When we had that, we hosted a talk here last week and we had some guys do a forensic analysis of it. The- the guys that got away with murder were the ones that didn't patch quickly-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... because the breach was [inaudible 00:11:33] in the patch, whereas the rhetoric from the organizations that support businesses to be efficacious, say, "Patch quick, patch fast." So the ones that didn't get whacked were the ones that weren't following the methodology that's being prescribed by the- the guys that are giving the intelligence. And so with small businesses, their real problem is, there's a new cost center. But we're also meeting a new breed of younger people now who are leading businesses-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... who have got a digital experience, who have a- a- a social media following, who transact in a different way. So the C-suite of some of the organizations I'm meeting, and I- I, bro, I'm very granular in my approach at the people that I'm working with, that is in the law, in accountancy, in venture capitalism. These are businesses that have got low head count, but high revenue-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... but more often than not, high levels of IP customer data and proprietary information. So, people that have got doing big deals, lot of money, but are running lean shows. So, they've got the ability to pay for services when they need them. But to your point before, they're excellent at what they do, but they also have not got the ego to realize that I can't do this bit as well.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: So, that's where there's true partnerships being formed with us, is because... and I'm lucky now to have built out a good reputation in the market. My business partner has one and we're starting to see the benefit of that metastasizing out. And also, again, an affirmation from our customer, which you've had a couple of this week, which is a- a wonderful thing. And that's that momentum starting to build, but we work with sort of, you know, big accounts, big companies, because there's that trickle down effects from working with those guys.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: Because once we do a good job with that particular accountancy, then they can see the benefit in what we're doing, they then, excuse me, then they- they wanna pass it out to their customers as well.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: So, there's a trickle-down effect from good practices. My business is all about simplification of a terribly complex issue.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: And again, I don't understand cybersecurity. I don't know anyone that really does. And as much as there is that-

Garrett O'Hara: I think Bruce Schneier is the only name I can think of that's there [laughs].

Ben Jones: Yeah. I mean, and maybe I don't know it that much, I don't even know who that is.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: But my- my point is, is that there's so many people who say they are, and they know that particular bit, but we stay in our lane-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... with one particular set of industries to make it simple, to make it workable, and to add value at a right price point.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep. And that's, I mean, I'm- I'm assuming for SMB, that price point part is- is going to be in, you know, not to get into, you know, it's the Cyber Resilience Podcast, not to- to kind of talk about the-

Ben Jones: [laughs]

Garrett O'Hara: ... the brutal nature of capitalism and the fact that we all have to sort of earn a living, but-

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: ... you know, SMBs would be a- assume particularly, you know s-... vulnerable, is maybe the wrong word, but conscious of price given the, you know, they're operating boundaries are generally, you know-

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: ... if you're an SMB, you've got a little bit less cattle sitting in the bank-

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: ... and then potentially cashflow issues. So, you know, spending tends to be scrutinized in a way that maybe, oddly, you know, when you move to enterprise, you can see sort of big spends, but, you know, we- we've both been through those kinds of situations or had those conversations where shelfware exists. You know, money has been spent, but it hasn't been utilized-

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: ... you know, it's a- a well understood problem.

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: I'm guessing when you get to SMB, there's a lot more attention being put on where the money's being spent, so that derivation of value becomes much more important.

Ben Jones: Yep. Uh and I think if you look at this as sort of that classic case of the adoption curve, right? So you have those early adopters who will put their hand in their pocket.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: but I think we've almost sort of crossed the line now in people knowing that I've always thought that cybersecurity was a business ugh, not a prohibitor, but it was something that didn't enable business in many ways. It was something that stopped it. I- I- I'm much the other way now. And especially when I'm speaking with my customers, I think cyber security is a business enabler, because I think the minute that you can show that you've got great standards and hygiene to your customers, to your third-party and to your suppliers-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... I think that that's actually a really good thing in this market.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: I said... I've said it to you before. I mean, Apple did an entire, you know, billion dollar international campaign on privacy, um-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... at Christmas. And it was the first time I'd ever seen that. Now, if they're doing it, they're onto the fact that they know that it's important and that's not a B2B, that's more a B2C play really, or a customer play. But I thought it was very interesting that now our IP or our data, or our- our identity is something that seems to be much more valuable.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: I was with... we've just done a deal with a cybersecurity insurance uh we're going to be partnering up with them to offer businesses cybersecurity insurance-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... business continuity and that type of stuff and ransomware stuff, which is really exciting for us, because lots of businesses are asking for that now. so, we're going to help them out with that. But the data on- on personal... people taking out personal cybersecurity, wow, that was really interesting to me as well.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: So, it is small businesses, but people are now worried about their own digital identity, you know, it's it's- it's very important.

Garrett O'Hara: Yes. Yeah. That idea of personal cyber insurance that starts to get really interesting. But I- I... and take your point about Apple, 'cause I think that is like the lead indicator often of, you know, where the- the zeitgeist is going.

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: And I've- I've heard on- on, you know, multiple podcasts now, sort of economics and business punditry, talking about those moves. And, you know, what that is, is a signal that's coming down the line. One of the things we've been sort of talking about not you and I, but just in general [laughs] is the- the m-... and, you know, relates to what you've just said, the movement of cybersecurity into the forefront, where boards are understanding it. The, you know, AF4 is publishing stories with logos that are well known, well understood, who are being popped and breached, and it feels like that's trickling down, as you say, into- into the sort of the psyche of, I would say business in general, but I'm assuming SMB is starting to see that stuff and understand it's importance as well.

Ben Jones: Yeah, I- I- I've had I experienced in the enterprise. I've just been through a really good process. Um I've just done the- the Cyber Leadership Institute course with Phil Zongo Darren Argyle and Jan Schreuder.

Garrett O'Hara: Great guys.

Ben Jones: So those three amaz-... great guys-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... who's sort of the... three of the leaders in this industry, Darren's obviously, he's out at Standard Chartered in Singapore, ex-Qantas guy, but very bright guy. Phillimon's obviously Mr- Mr. Cybersecurity in Australia, but a lovely man, but very smart.

Garrett O'Hara: He's amazing. Yeah.

Ben Jones: his book's on my desk and many other desks around the world. Um and Jan, as well, who I've only recently met, but he's part of the... he's the- the third part of the trifecta, but a wonderful guy-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... with a huge risk management background. I've just done an eight week course with those guys, which I just passed last week, and it was with people from all around the world. The- the point is, is that cybersecurity is really just breached pardon the pun, the C-suite. So it's just become significant there-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... 'cause it used to be this sort of nerdy IT problem, but now it's on there, on the board meeting notes with you know, the P&L, with the HR policies. And so there's actually someone there.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: Now, there's still... I- I still don't feel the [inaudible 00:18:41] was taken as serious as they need to be. as we said before we started recording, the- the actual job description itself is only 20 years old-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... but it takes time, like any big fundamental change does, to get to that point whereby they're taken seriously, they're being part of the- the- the culture of the business. And I think we're just at that critical moment now, whereby it's starting to get the traction that it really deserves. I think the kicker for me in the enterprise is gonna be when the CPS 234 stuff, that tiger gets some teeth-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... and somebody is held accountable fiscally when that $2 million fine comes out to a board director who's not done the right thing. And that has to come after 18 months, or two and a half years now of that legislation being there. I work in a lot of those APRA based businesses, which is great for me, because now people are taking notice of it. And it's actually an ongoing concern-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

Ben Jones: ... but mostly it's part of the conversation. But that's also trickled down and cascaded down into these APRA related small business companies that I'm doing. So, they're doing big numbers, but now cybersecurity is part of the- the narrative. And so people have a level of awareness. This is only reinforced on a daily level, like you say, by these attacks. I- I- I almost feel we've become I don't know, like lo-... it's lost on a stand, because there's something every day.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: and I read the popular press within the industry, or you can read the Sydney Morning Herald or The Sun, if you want, in the UK, or the New York Times, or USA Today, there is inevitably within that paper something about some type of cyber crime-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... because the numbers are astounding. People and- and I've heard you talked about this the other day about sophistication of attack. The- the crime that it is, it's- it's still not that sophisticated, I don't think. And that's what I'm all about-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... is just making it simple, because I believe I'm not indemnifying anyone against it happening, because again, if the Channel 9 can't get it right, the government can't get it right, no one can.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: Because again, to my other point, the attacker's the one, the- the ax is the one, the [inaudible 00:20:44] is the one that's actually innovating. So, all my business really is, is a risk mitigation business. And all I'm trying to do [laughs] is get you to do five things really well.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: And one of those is to change your culture in your business with the way that you, you know, you consume the information. And my- my favorite example of the... of the videos, and I'll give you guys a shout out, is human nature. I think sorry, human- human error. I think he's probably the best cast character of all time with your security awareness stuff-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... but very efficacious way that- that you guys did that. But I- I think if you can get that culture of change where you get it going, but compliance to that, and get that eye roll away from security awareness and adoption of that then that's great. And there's lots of organizations doing that really well, and I'd love to think that I'm joining that group of doing that. So it's got... it's meaningful, that it makes an impression, and then you're not just skipping the video and getting the test.

Garrett O'Hara: And- and you've- you've probably heard me bleed on about this quite a lot, actually over the last kind of couple of years. And what you've just said there is I think the biggest change we're seeing, I would say, it's fair to say. I think the penny has dropped in the-

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: ... importance of what you've just said, and some of the content that you see when, yeah, we do it, but I'm thinking we're really [inaudible 00:22:00] and I know you're connected to on LinkedIn also-

Ben Jones: Yeah.

Garrett O'Hara: ... is some of the-

Ben Jones: [crosstalk 00:22:07] lad.

Garrett O'Hara: [laughs] He is. Some of the some of the content there to me, I love it, right?

Ben Jones: Yeah.

Garrett O'Hara: I just feel like that sort of quirky-

Ben Jones: Caption this.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: Just let- let's go and push it maybe farther than, I dunno, some people might- might get funny about.

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: I'm- I'm personally a big believer in what it takes to get the cut-through to do that.

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: And that's different from different organizations, right? Because what's appropriate for a, you know, a startup where they've got foosball tables and pizza, and maybe people are a little bit younger, versus a you know, a- a school that's aligned to, you know, a certain type of religion, for example.

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: The same stuff's not going to work, right? But thinking, being mindful about what is the stuff that we can do to get through to- to our users, how do we get the message to them and reinforce it?

Ben Jones: Yep. I- I- I work a lot with this guy, James Linton in the UK, I think who's the email prankster. and I met him a couple of years ago and we've been doing some work with him. one of the things that I've really come to realize is this, it's horses for courses.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: You can't deploy one solution for a technical team, a manager, and ha-... and have... and have the expectation that just 'cause you've given someone a video, that's gonna work for them.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: drawing upon my background in psychology, which is something that I thought was gonna be something that wouldn't help me whatsoever, it's been the most important thing. And so I always go back to this idea of cognitive dissonance. A good example of cognitive dissonance is, is the people that smoke, for example.

Now, you start smoking, I used to smoke as well. I always knew that smoking was bad, I knew that if I did it all my life I'd probably get cancer, and I knew that I would die, but I still smoked. Do you know what I mean? So, why would I be doing something that would ultimately resort in me dying? Well, I had a dissonance in between what I thought, what I felt and what that gave me in that in that... in that moment, that- that sort of instant gratification-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... or the oral fixation.

Garrett O'Hara: [laughs]

Ben Jones: For whatever reason I actually did it. But I think now there's like a cyber dissonance.

Garrett O'Hara: Okay.

Ben Jones: So we know that there is an issue, we know that you're gonna get bad emails, we know that 35% of businesses in Australia have been have been attacked at some point. In SMB they say 80% of people are getting fished. There's so many sort of figures and statistics, but everyone's gonna get an fishing email.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: That's the reality.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: So, if we know we're gonna get it, we know this is the consequence of doing it, why are we not doing anything about it?

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: I think it's 'cause it's too hard and it's too difficult. I- I mentioned James because the minute that you work with people that get or can help people to understand the actual gravity of the problem, it's like, again, going back to another- another metaphor, it's like healthcare. Like people wanna lose weight after they've had a heart attack, or, you know, after they've been diagnosed with something bad.

Where we know that preventative healthcare is so much better. If we can do... like if every man in in the... in Australia had a- a- an endoscopy when he was 50, you'd cut bowel cancer by half.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: And mortality of that disease state in men by half with one- one procedure, if we were doing it. But unfortunately most people go through and report a problem as it becomes chronic, and then you have a terrible outcome.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: So I- I think cyber, without being too clumsy, is not dissimilar. We know there's a problem, and if we just do simple things well, good hygiene well, then I think that you're much more likely to have a better outcome, 'cause nothing is infinite. Nobody can say you're definitely not gonna get hacked. For all of the tools that are out there-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... no one can promise that. And we know that, but with the deployment of the right tools, the right people, but more importantly, the right culture where everyone's onboard. There's a wonderful woman called Gail Kelly who's a South African lady that ended up being the CEO of Westpac. and she was in Australia about eight years ago, and I remember reading this. She was a single mom, started off as a teller, every barrier and glass ceiling you could possibly have, but she ended up running the bank.

She's a very impressive woman and I went to a talk that she gave, and she just said, "Look, I'm on the bus, this is where I'm going, I'd like you to stay on, and this is how we're gonna get there."

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: "But if you don't, just get off." And I just think the minute that leaders embrace cybersecurity being a fundamental business pillar and enabler-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... and you get the buy-in, then I think that's when people start taking it more seriously. And then hopefully we'll see a slight cessation in the incidents that we see that have a real impact on Australia businesses life. And I- I said this on another podcast a couple of weeks ago, I find it remarkable that we- we've not had a big infrastructure, lights out, country breaking down for five days. I genuinely... you spoke last week about the- the the water treatment plan a couple of weeks ago-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... with a disgruntled employee, which is a great example.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: That to me is like that Monty Python sketch where they're in a castle and someone throws like a dead body into the well, which contaminates the water supply. It's no different essentially.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: But I find it remarkable in this day and age that there's not been something much more nefarious at play. I think the- the- the Channel 9 stuff is probably espionage at some level. I think there's lots going on geopolitically in the world, without being like a conspiracy theorist. But I think the great thing about cyber is, is it's so hidden-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... but it's very much a tactic for disruption, and I find it remarkable that all the lights, traffic lights haven't gone out in Sydney, or the water's not stopped-

Garrett O'Hara: You're freaking me out, Ben.

Ben Jones: No, no [laughs].

Garrett O'Hara: It's unfair. My tinfoil hat is it's- it's... Yeah, look, it's- it's- it's definitely an interesting one and, you know, there's has been people talking about critical infrastructure for many years.

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: And, you know, when it is 3:00 AM and you're kind of lying awake and thinking about this stuff it- it... that, I think, would be... it's fairly rational to have that as a worry. I- I think it's like-

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: ... that's the reality. And part of it is, to your point, what we're dealing with here is not a... you can't point to it. It's not like the, you know, water in- in a dam, or the lights being on, it's... most people, conceptually, won't be able to visualize ones and zeros and what that actually means for day to day lives. So, you know, there's... I- I've... it's a thing I've kind of being saying for years, it's like it's very hard to get that emotional attachment to the importance of this stuff, because what we're talking about is capacitors being [laughs] a one or a zero-

Ben Jones: Yeah.

Garrett O'Hara: ... on, you know, circuitry around the world, and have that data flows, but it's so abstract, but has such a huge impact to how we live our lives.

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: Have we just gotten lucky?

Ben Jones: Yeah, I- I think there must be some luck in it. And- and, but to take it from that, so we talk a lot about people, processes, technology.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: That's all the... which isn't ours, obviously, it's a... it's a... it's a government thing essentially, or it's been... but it's been-

Garrett O'Hara: It's been around for... yeah.

Ben Jones: ... been around for a long time. But it's what I truly believe in-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... and that's simplicity for me. The thing I like about your security awareness stuff is that the human nature guy is so relatable-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... and you know that guy, right? That is someone in your team, or but it is personal, and you're making this technical issue about hu-... but you're humanizing it.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: You... how can you humanize, like you say, a piece of cold, or- or- or so you- you can only ever humanize the outcome. So you want people to gravitate to it, to understand it. I think this idea of demystifying what cybersecurity really is-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... not just the consequence, because people-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... don't need to know what the attack vector is, or what state nation's involved, or... it's good to know, but even I get lost sometimes when I read these threat reports, or the methodology of attack and I don't know what I'm talking about, I'll be honest with you, the really high level technical stuff. Now fortunately my business partner does, that's why cybersecurity is good, 'cause it's a team sport.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: But they're so technical, some of the stuff, but the outcome of it to a business, my concern is my customer who run a small business, their concern is I wanna run my business, and that's why we can transact quickly and effectively. Because to them, the small business owner, cybersecurity is another problem, go and fix it, and that's what we do.

Garrett O'Hara: And one of the things, and I think the first time I had the conversation was with a [inaudible 00:30:05] and it's probably three years ago, and he- he mentioned this idea of kind of cybersecurity as a competitive advantage. And, you know, it was a little- little seed that was planted in my brain. I'm sure other people have been sort of talking about it, but it was like, "Actually, that's a really interesting point."

That feels like it's starting to become real, you know, that idea that you've heard that analogy that's been, you know, f- fairly well used in our industry, of the- the reason brakes are on a car is so that you can go faster, not that you can slow down. Like that's why [crosstalk 00:30:35]

Ben Jones: I- I use this in my pitch, Gar, I stole it from you. You had [crosstalk 00:30:37]

Garrett O'Hara: Well, it's not mine.

Ben Jones: I pinched it off you. I love it.

Garrett O'Hara: Okay, I- I- I've pinched it off somebody else [laughs], so it's it's it's a... but it's a great analogy. And I'm thinking more and more, and you made the commentary around cyber insurance, you know, if you're gonna win a contract, you're gonna get to the point where, you know, b- being, again, back to capitalism, we all have to compete for stuff. And, you know, ultimately kind of hopefully do the things that pay our salaries.

But when it comes down to it, you're gonna have these situations where on paper two things look the same, or two organizations look the same, wouldn't it be amazing to be able to point to, "Hey, look, we do cybersecurity really well, so if you come with us, the reality is the service will be up, the product will be available, our people are gonna be able to respond to emails, or slacks or whatever." but it's feeling like, to your point, we're starting to see that- that shift in psyche, winning contracts, being... even things like getting cyber insurance.

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: Now if you don't do cybersecurity well, [laughs] well, if you get it, your premiums are gonna be really high. Why not do this stuff early, do it well, and then just go really hard as an SMB and- and s-... you know, do well at your business?

Ben Jones: And it's a great point, 'cause that's exactly what we do-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... and not only that, if you do an RFP these days, or your policies and procedures, you know, we- we have had our customers use, like it's part of what we do is to generate policy and procedures for our company and data management around-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... security awa-... security awareness around their email policy. We use a doci-... a DocuSign-esque bus-... uh business tool to get that out to every single employee-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... every single third-party, get it signed, get it returned, and we have like a compliance pie chart-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... which then that goes back out to all their customers, and- and they go out and pontificate to their customers we're 100% compliant on this policy.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: What it's done which was hidden from me initially, which is why I- I thought about it, but I didn't know what happened. This has actually helped this business win a piece of business already, because-

Garrett O'Hara: Okay.

Ben Jones: ... they've actually been able to go to one of their other suppliers, or prospect and say, "This is our standard. This is what we live." And it's actually, I think, on the precipice to become a value somewhere within a business.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: Do you know what I mean? A- a- and when you go out to your customers, if I sign up to anything now any business, or become a subscription, sub- subscribe to something, because of the role I'm in and the job that I've got, I always have a look around what their policies and procedures are. It means I'm getting old a bit boring, I suppose in a way, but- but- but-

Garrett O'Hara: The need to change is there.

Ben Jones: ... yeah [laughing], no, but- but- but the thing about it is, is that I- I care about my di- digital footprint and my reputation online.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: one of your colleagues said last week that once it's you online, that's it. That's it. It's there forever.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: It's like thank goodness there wasn't, you know, like camera phones-

Garrett O'Hara: Oh, god.

Ben Jones: ... in 1987, 1997 [laughing] on- on the ill fated tour that I went on. But it's- it's crazy, you know-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... and that- that- that idea that you can yeah, I- I- I just think people can leverage that they've got great compliance and set of standards, not only with their business cadence or with their professionalism, but their cybersecurity hygiene. This particular business I'm talking about, they've then gone out to all of their partners, the partners have then said, "Well, can we do it? We need to have that standard."

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: Their third-party managem-... the ri-... the third-party guys are then saying, "Well, we're nowhere near that. This might be an- an- an asset company, or g- Georgia-..." so, then all that we're then doing is just like a- a- a- a- a ripple in a... in a... in an ocean-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... and it's starting to go out where other people are saying, "Well, we need that too. We need that too." The business is now saying, "We insist that you have it for- for you to do business." They're now mandating the use that people sign and accept this policy-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... to do... to do business with them. Now for me that's all happened very, very quickly, but I'm really, really proud of that, that's something that we've installed in a business. They've adopted it, and then not only that, they've pushed it out. It's now become a business process for you to do business with this business. I'm- I'm... so that's my proudest moment in business.

Garrett O'Hara: And important stuff, you know, when I think about Australia as a society and a place we all, you know, I think enjoy living in, and, you know, we talk about the SMBs as the engine for the economy, what you're talking about in many ways is almost you know, call it herd immunity, which is, you know, it now gets overused and probably is a little bit misunderstood. But what you're talking about in a way is vaccinating a business against the potential for, you know, god, yes, it's a virus, it's [laughs] a cyber virus-

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: ... but, you know, the more of those SMB organizations, mid size, large enterprise organizations, do this stuff well. You know, the- the fabric, you know, that con- connected fabric of the economy starts to be more resilient-

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: ... and, you know, if we do that well, do we become less of an appealing target at a national level, versus maybe some other geos where, for whatever reasons, they don't have their their approach as mature, or the- the government regulations haven't come in, and, you know, we're starting to- to see that conversation happen with some of the papers that are produced recently on the [inaudible 00:35:25] issue specifically. It- it feels like that's where we're going, right? It's that- that sort of herd- herd immunity vaccination inoculation against bad cybersecurity.

Ben Jones: And- and- and for me it's all about the metaphor is great and on point and timely, but it's about change management. Like how do people... how do people like change? No, not really.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: But I think that we'll look back in 10 years at this last 12 months and go, "What happened there with COVID?" Like look at the change that's happened this last year.

Garrett O'Hara: Right.

Ben Jones: It's unbelievable in every single facet of your life. I can't go home, we can't go home we're gonna have to have a vaccination. You know, I- I worked for AstraZeneca for 10 years and, you know, the- they would discover a molecule and it would take 10 years for a drug to get anywhere near being ready for-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... human trial, and inside a year we've got two, you know? Uh everyone wearing masks. 1,5 meters away.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: Isolation. I mean people talk about it being a- a- a biological pathogen. For me it's not, it's a... it's a... it's a psychological one. It's loneliness and separation and-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... there's been a big impact on that as well. there's... such change has happened this year, and- and that's been mirrored in cybersecurity as well, because the risks have gone through the roof. You know, there's some vectors where they- they... because you have all these new man in the middle attacks on people who are on their home wi-fis-

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: ... people... the businesses have not... I mean we couldn't even buy a monitor in March last year from j-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah [laughs].

Ben Jones: ... you know what I mean, or- or, so people were-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... doing all sort of... it was an absolute golden age then for the people who were... 'cause again, the attackers are always innovating they're the ones that are responding. If I was born in Liverpool and the lads who were... who were charging you to use, you know, to... when you parked your car, the scam's no different now if the, you know, whatever it is. The scam's always been there.

I got stopped... I'm from... I grew up in Salford, which is just nearly as good as Anfield for scams. And I remember this fellow who drove around for years selling selling leather jackets. He said he'd- he'd come in from Milan, he worked for Versace and he had to get rid of this stock so he didn't have to pay tax on it.

Garrett O'Hara: Sounds great.

Ben Jones: And he [laughs] drove around for 10 years seeling these plastic coats with like a Versace label s-... you know, stapled in, and he made a fortune doing it. But it was a classic scam. Al-... the scammer are always gonna be there, but the situation that we've got is now everyone's working from home, there's all of this change, people are more fearful. I just hope that we adopt that change. The herd mentality piece that you're saying, I think that's spot on.

I think that it's getting to that point where we're gonna adopt a new set of ways of working. You spoke last week as well about I think email might die in a couple of years, and I think that collaborative tool thing will get much more significant. Because BEC's obviously the- the big killer, FBI reports think 80% of all crime is related to it, or some 93% of all BECs obviously through that vector, but that's how most people are getting whacked, is by their email.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: By someone pressing the wrong button making that easier for people with, I don't know how we do it with the biometric signature, or I don't know, I paid a bill this morning on ANZ and I've got to say, you know, my voice is my identity-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: ... I'm not sure if you've done that, but it's- it's-

Garrett O'Hara: I haven't. I've- I've s-... people who know me, tinfoil hat.

Ben Jones: I probably shouldn't have said that actually [crosstalk 00:38:36].

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: I- I probably shouldn't have said that over the internet actually [laughs].

Garrett O'Hara: That's it, now people can have it... your voice is out there. And but who's... that's a perfect example, right?

Ben Jones: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:38:41]

Garrett O'Hara: You know, when I think about authentication that's happening-

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: ... you know, your voice is out there, so is my mine.

Ben Jones: Yeah.

Garrett O'Hara: And that's part of the reason why I just would never turn that on.

Ben Jones: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Garrett O'Hara: Just for me it won't work. It's interesting you're talking about scammers and you know, coming from places like we do, those, uh-

Ben Jones: Yeah. I bought one of those jackets, by the way. I'll never... I'll never [crosstalk 00:38:59] [laughing].

Garrett O'Hara: Snappy dresser. There's guys in Dublin called lock-hard men, and the reason they're called that is when you go park in the city, they're- they're the guys who, you know, they- they're not government or anything like that, they're just guys who threw on a fluro jacket and said, "Oh, yeah, lock-hard, lock-hard, come in." And there's a famous famous kind of story, it's probably an urban myth of, you know, one of those guys. They'd often say, you know, put out their hand for at the time, obviously, you know, a punt or whatever, a pound-

Ben Jones: Yeah.

Garrett O'Hara: ... and some of them would say, you know, like, "Give me another five and I'll make sure nothing happens to your car," and they're winking as they say it. You know, the- the sort or stand over kind of approach.

Ben Jones: Yeah.

Garrett O'Hara: There's a famous story of a guy you know, pulls in and the guy says, you know, "Thanks for the... thanks for the pound, you know, give us... give us five pound and I'll make sure nothing happens to your car, like it doesn't go... get damaged or anything." And the guy goes, "It's all right, there's a dog sitting in it," and the- the guys goes, "Yeah, does your dog put out fires?"

Ben Jones: [laughs]

Garrett O'Hara: It's like so that's- that's the kind of place I grew up in, which I- I have to say, I miss. And you mentioned like BEC, actually there's... and I've got a page full of notes here of- of things that we could kind of keep talking about [laughs]-

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: ... like B- BEC stuff I think is an interesting one. You know, it's- it's one of the ones that to me and, you- you know, talking about reducing complexity, it's probably one of the ones that I see technology helps process is huge, you know, that awareness training. Getting people to understand, hey, this is a problem.

Ben Jones: Yep.

Garrett O'Hara: like has that resonated with the SMB, 'cause I- I suspect they're probably particularly vulnerable with supply chain attacks and that kind of stuff?

Ben Jones: Definitely. And one of the- the other things I've had to unlearn as well is that people often are working who've worked in offices have a desktop or a laptop in their office-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... but SMB guys are on iPhones and iPads at best.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: So, I mean I- I- I used to do a good thing where you'd go into a meeting with someone and you do a Gmail to a... to a CEO, [inaudible 00:40:46] and you go and change it to a Donald Trump and, you know, whitehouse.com on the, you know, on... in the Gmail. So I used to send him an email when he was saying, oh, go and get me... a friend of my, Chris Russel, showed me how to do that. and halfway through the thing he said... you'd say to the guy, "I've got an email." He goes, "George Bush or Donald Trump's [laughs] just emailed me," and he'd open it. And I said, "That's how simple it is." He goes, "Right, okay." Then- then that would progress the discussion. business owners again use the short sharp thinking, typical things, you have 250 emails a day-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... so huge amount og volume stuff, anything that's got to do with the supply. If someone's perforated your infrastructure, you get from- from a supplier, "Pay this now." They don't have those processes in place.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: And again, even those businesses that do, I mean people say that they're sort of the CEO or CFO you know, that- that type of attack, or the payment thing, that- that's got old and people have got processes. Rubbish.

Garrett O'Hara: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ben Jones: Saw four last week, bad ones as well, from big businesses. Still happens. People still socially engineered, that's still that... we still get that warm and fuzzy in NLP, as we've spoke about before, they call it an anchor-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... if you still see that email, the language is mimicked from that person, you- you do it.

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: You- you... whatever policy and procedure you have in your head, it goes out the window if you've got Sharon and the [inaudible 00:41:57] gymnastics last weekend for your daughter and they add in all of that. And that's how sophisticated it is. And it's just a numbers game. You know, 'cause if you thr-... if you fire a million bullets, one of them hits.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: That's it, and I remember being educated around like the West Af-... West African gang mentality, and it's a... it is an enterprise. It's a criminal enterprise, and so there's hundreds of thousands of these emails going out on a daily basis. You talked last week about a really good bit about the list of people that buy in, that have been scraped off LinkedIn. the one thought I thought about that immediately is we all buy two or three of those lists and clean that data up, then get, you know, actually get good- good marketing and, yeah, do a good attack. And some- someone will bite. And, you know, the- the- the average rate of ransomware has gone from $43,000 this year to $83,000. You know, it's like... it's like s- s- someone paid two and a half Bitcoin I know yesterday to someone that had been locked up in a... in a decent business. It's crazy.

Garrett O'Hara: Is there a way we could s-... we could set up an ETF that we could sort of like abstract ourselves, but still manage to invest in whoever's making those kind of jumps in profit?

Ben Jones: [email protected] [laughing].

Garrett O'Hara: [crosstalk 00:43:04] [laughing]. Um-

Ben Jones: no, I mean look, the... all of that world is just so crazy, but it's not going away quick, and there's no panacea to the problems I see at the moment. There's nothing that is gonna eradicate this like a vaccine. There's no vaccine to this problem at the moment. It is slow, methodical, herd mentality change it being taken more seriously-

Garrett O'Hara: Yep.

Ben Jones: ... and a massive shift, unless we can all start communicating in a different way, 'cause email's not going anywhere for now businesses have got to work, people are gonna do electronic transfers, people are gonna use digital services, there's gonna be fraud. And by the way, everything that's not working today, they'll have some... everything that's working out today, there'll be something else next week. That's why innovation, new business is so important, but there's always someone clever. There's always someone trying to sell you a leather coat, or get you in a car park [inaudible 00:43:54].

Garrett O'Hara: Just the way it is.

Ben Jones: And it's... and it's a recession proof industry, so I'm- I'm proud to be in it, working good people, trying to do the best we can to help small businesses.

Garrett O'Hara: And and definitely succeeding. And I do have a campaign that I'm sort of slightly running on the side which you my or may not be aware of, to get us all back to abacuses and paper and pen.

Ben Jones: Yeah.

Garrett O'Hara: I feel like that's our future, you know?

Ben Jones: Like it's-

Garrett O'Hara: Get away from this technology stuff.

Ben Jones: And one other note, 'cause the one note I wanted to tell you about today was when I- I was with a CEO last week and I bought... I've actually bought him an etch a sketch [laughs], 'cause he's the biggest c-... he's the biggest... and he's a lovely mate, a mate of mine, and he's given me his business, but he's the b-... he's the biggest... he's run the business, he's a financier, he's- he's like the Rain Man, he's such a whizz kid.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: A lovely guy, but he's set the business up, but ultimately he's absolutely useless at this thing.

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah.

Ben Jones: And he won't mind me saying this, but I won't mention his name, but I bought him an etch a sketch last week, because that's all he's allowed to use, because he should write it down and shake the thing [crosstalk 00:44:44] a little bit away-

Garrett O'Hara: Yeah. Good- good good plan. Ben a absolutely pleasure, and it's been great. We've- we've, I think tried to talk about this for quite some time, so it's good to get, first of all, get to do it, but do it face to face. So, thank you so much for having having us in today and- and for the conversation.

Ben Jones: Very grateful and again, congratulations getting to that landmark podcast. it's so great, I know that- that the continuity of them is hard and, yeah, congratulations to you and the team. And I'm very grateful to have had the opportunity to jump on.

Garrett O'Hara: Thanks.

Ben Jones: my- my absolutely pleasure to have you here. Thank you.

Garrett O'Hara: Good times. Thanks Ben. Big thanks again to Ben for that conversation. Great value, as expected. As always, thank you for listening to the Get Cyber Resilient Podcast, we have that back head log of episodes, so please do have a listen to those and rate, subscribe, all of that good stuff. For now, stay safe and I look forward to catching you on the next episode.

 

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Principal Technical Consultant

Garrett O’Hara is the Principal Technical Consultant at Mimecast having joined in 2015 with the opening of the Sydney office, leading the growth and development of the local team. With over 20 years of experience across development, UI/UX, technology communication, training development and mentoring, Garrett now works to help organisations understand and manage their cyber resilience strategies. When not talking about the cyber security landscape, data assurance approaches and business continuity Garrett can be found running, surfing or enjoying the many bars and eateries of Sydney's Northern Beaches.

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Garrett O'Hara